This routine is all about leading someone around endless circles using parsed words this appears to be something relished. Since they have opted themselves out of the blame by their distorted concept of the elect, they have no problem with he cruelty and injustice of God secretly planning and determining all things, yet punishing with eternal condemnation the minions he created (except for the lucky elect!) Andrews University Seventh-day Adventist Theological When Paul quoted Psalms, or Isaiah, or Hosea, the Gentiles in his audience were dumbfounded (Huh?!?). Once the faith is given to him.it is his faith and personal. Youre always welcome to assume hes not playing games with you but youll eventually realize thats the case. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. There was no contradiction. the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And this is why Calvinists hide behind equivocations, evasions, and double-speak designed to mask the sector of irrationality in their deterministic interpretations. :-], I could never have said it better myself!!. The discussion of the differences between oida (know) and ginosko (know) have not found total agreement among Greek scholars. 2. Bruce). Im trying to follow Jesus instructions about greetings (Matt 23:10, Teacher = Doctor). [5] The definition of proginsk is from The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2011), 30.100. I dont recall that saying from Luther, BrD. think the gospel is foolishiness Whereas you believe from my understanding of the many Calvinists that Ive read and spoke to that the elect before they were born were chosen to irresistibly be a lover of God for no other reason than a secret decree. Many Christians having mistakenly understood this great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues as being Gentiles, even believers, thus putting Christians in the Great Tribulation. Clearly, this word can be understood simply as knowing someone or something in the past, as in those known previously (i.e. That is my whole point. Im no expert, but I agree that word studies, alone, have limited value. Despite Pauls dire warnings, so many Christians have turned their backs on the chosen people. And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? William Lane Craig offers 5 arguments against divine Why do You sleep, O Lord? Pauls uses the term called consistently in Romans to designate being named or labeled rather than invited. N. T. Wright on predestination, YouTube video, 05:08, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKwIijhZW-M; [date accessed: 10/10/15]. That is the perverse root that lies underneath Calvinisms whole ugly, perverted system. William Lane Craig It is the truth about, the promise that God made to useternal life. Of this knowledge, John writes, the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. Flowers to argue his case, he needs to investigate all these verses to demonstrate that they support his claim or that 8:28 is somehow unique and should be separated form the other verses and given a uniquely different sense. Joel, FOH is right and I apologize for not saying something before now. Romans 8:29b states he (God) also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son. Who was predestined and to what ends were they predestined, according to this passage? WebIn November 2013, Dr William Lane Craig was invited to the radio show Unbelievable, hosted by Justin Brierley, on Premier Christian Radio in the United Kingdom. And so it goes on. They were his ppl from since the beginning. This is the ultimate example of God causing all things to work for the good of those saints of old who loved God. Its both amazing and sad to me that so many Christians want the blessings that God gave to Israel, but dont want the burdens that come along with being the chosen people. Roger dont your feel slightly embarrassed when you write something that sounds like a salvation that is without personal faith and of a non-elect person, when you only believe the whosoever will were once themselves whosoever wont and then changed by the manmade notion of a zapping of their will with an unbiblical Calvinist regeneration and making them into whosoever will without their knowledge. Someone could say I was sentenced to prison. Matthew serves as a contrast to the elect of 8:29. Christians, as a whole (TEAM) was chosen TO BEholy and blameless before him in love. Paul is saying that God hated Esau .but still some of them will be saved since the Potter can change His plans as He likes. So, it was not mere Divine pre-knowledge of certain individuals, but a real intimate pre-acquaintanceship.[14]. Thats what makes it so dreadful to even Calvin, because according to Calvinism Adam and everyone else are just fulfilling the unchangeable dreadful decree. And you might also want to look more closely at Acts 15:18. It is we who, through our free choices, turned the world into such a decadent and evil place. WebWilliam Lane Craig. Dr. Craig and Dr. Moreland continue their interview including Mind-Body Dualism and Artificial Intelligence. Lane v. Provo Rehabilitation and Nursing :: 2018 - Justia Law He was referring to those whom God knew personally and intimately, men like Abraham and David. Chapter 11 does not nullify what Paul says in chapter 8. Instead look at the evidence of Scripture prior to the Jews delivering Jesus up to be killed. The Calvinist can play word games, backpedal, contradict, re-imagine and add links to their golden chain all day long. And then those struggles would rise up again when the Jewish people were allowed to return. But this is a very rare usage in the original language and the immediate context does not clearly support a Calvinistic rendering. Our being conformed into Christs image today has nothing to do with the future coming of Christs birth, whereas the saints of old were part of His very lineage. So it is you that doesnt believe elect = God lover, not me. Brian the exact words (and logic) matter to most of us. The answer to that Why you pose is too inconceivable for most to even ponder. Premier Christian RadioUnbelievable? | Interviews Isnt their elect in systematic that do not love God, DG writes, I just want to point out your blatant contradiction,. Its inexplicable remember. Likewise the Jewish world is also without excuse (Rom. It has nothing to do with Gentiles (except in opposition). We have to remember that when Paul spoke these words, when he quoted the OT, the Gentiles in the audience wouldnt have a clue what he was talking about. WebSecond (and equally crucial) is the question of how we reconcile God's universal salvific will with the mystery of predestination, election, and reprobation. Awake! 3:17, which states, Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guardso that you may not be carried away by the errorof the lawless and fall from your secure position. And the same word is used in Acts 26:45: The Jewish people all know the way I have lived ever since I was a child,from the beginning of my life in my own country, and also in Jerusalem. but He is not saying that individually. However, the prophecies fit into Gods plan and Gods plan predates the giving of the prophecies. Is it the same here in Acts 2? Paul has them in mind when he later writes, The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, (v12). That is the very question the apostle poses in Rom. All are mere distractions from the one, unchanging question that must be addressed does God love all men and offer them redemption or not? The first critical point to consider is: Even among those who physically hear the gospel, not all become saved so God, in giving the increase, seems to pick and choose who will come to Christ. Abraham, Moses, David, etc) by conforming them into the image of the One who would come to purchase their redemption. or a future event yet to be accomplished but certain? To turn all of this, and the many explanations of redemption throughout scripture into some sort of fixed game in which the works of the devil were really ordained by God all along, and their power was intended by God to inescapably bring many to ultimate destruction is to utterly pervert the gospel, which is declared to be good news unto all people not some chosen few. I find it amazing when Calvinists hear Christ say He will lift up all men.they say that means all kinds of men.both Jew and Gentile.. This is the true God, and eternal life. . Thank you Brother FOH, but it must be like acid reflux goes up for some? The elect love God because they are elect and as elect, God brings them to salvation at which time, they come to love God. Paul does not say that his readers should intuitively know how God works things out for those who love Him in the present. I dont understand what you are trying to say. They were foreknown (previously known) by God, as in they had an intimate personal relationship with God in the past. The gentiles benefited through the gospel that was preached to us because they rejected it. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written, James then quotes from the prophets, I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old. or as I quoted it, All his works are known to God from eternity. James refers to Gods prophecies in the OT, so we know that God knows these things, at least, from the point of the prophecy. The predestination is limited to Israel. WebWilliam Lane Craig (shelved 1 time as predestination ) avg rating 4.25 290 ratings published 1987 I personally think oida is used, not to emphasize how knowledge is gained but that however it was gained it is now a certain knowledge. Paul clarifies himself later As you can see the Lord has blessed us here with Brains care, gentle kindness, and highly observable expertise! Of course, then refers to believers who already have faith. Whats the connection? br.d br.d As a result, all that Israel hoped for, all that it based its hope on, is true of those who are in Christ.[10]. Who are the Priests that experience the last 42 months (the Great Tribulation) of the 7 year tribulation? They were his ppl from since the beginning. Any one; any person whatever. Because God knows (in an experiential sense) what man is like. 1) Where scripture is obviously silent it is silent for a reason. So the only things that occur freely are things predestined. For me, if someone hates the people of Israel, then they hate the God of Israel. Paul said, The man who loves God is known by God (1 Cor. Yeah but you guys never told us what foreknew means! rhutchin Isaac, then Jacob were the children of promise not Ismail and Esau. Calvinist It appears to me that ginosko is used to emphasize the process of how the knowledge is gained empirically. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the (Mosaic) law of God, nor indeed can be. Yes I understand that argument. Romans 2:2) [3] This is also true of Eph. A secret decree as Calvin likes to put it demands no purpose or anything revealed including even the gospel. I personally think oida is used, not to emphasize how knowledge is gained but that however it was gained it is now a certain knowledge., Dr. 3 followers 3 connections Every trial must have a basis. Who are we to judge? It is much easier to sleep at night, no matter what one might have done or not done, with that Get out of hell free card in ones back pocket. Cain killed Abel. Flowers searches the Scriptures to prove his claim about v29. If indeed Paul was referencing the saints formerly known and loved by God, he would have communicated the certainty of their being justified, sanctified and finally glorified in a way that some might describe as a golden chain of redemption.[15] To presume, however, that Pauls unbroken chain of past tense verbs is not in reference to people of the past is a linguistic stretch. Remember the point of the apostle leading up to this verse. This, however, is not quite correct. The Calvinist confession says they are -quote *MADE* willing. 5. God interacts with His creation but does not react to anything new in His creation; it is His creation that reacts to God. We would like to show you a description here but the site wont allow us. I always thought it had to be in a future sense from eternity past. br.d God interacts with His creation as we read in the Scriptures. Then, It was you that said in your last post that there are no elect that do not love God..am I correct?, Actually, I said, There are none who love God other than the elect of God. We can phrase it without the double negative you used above, Only the elect love God., Then, And you tried to say that I falsely believe this.. 1974; M.A. So, what is your argument? Through You we will push down our enemies; Through Your name we will trample those who rise up against us. No doubt you will get some saying. I laughed through the whole thing! The grammar (semantic meaning) of the verb (he foreknew) as used by Paul is unique, it seems, at least by him (Ac 26:5; Ro 8:29; Ro 11:2), to indicate a relational knowledge more than prescience of information. Sorry! The authors of scripture could have easily stated that people are elect or predestined prior to being believers. But for some reason not one single author of scripture states this. God could have easily put that concept into the minds of the authors of scripture. But he did not. You again borrow from my theology to prove that God has a purpose behind salvation and use Ephesians 3 to prove it.which is what I would do. What is middle knowledge We should make sure our dogma is built upon words, phrases, sentences, paragraphs, and topics that are clearly confirmed in multiple contexts and on the consistency of meaning of words in those multiple contexts. There is no reason to add all the esoteric theological baggage of God looking through corridors of time or making arbitrary sovereign choices about who He will and will not love before the world began. Which just means that God has a perfect understanding of His creation. Thanks Brian. However, Gods relationship goes back before the works because it is God who draws the true believers to Christ in the first place prior to any works done by the believer. A God who creates all men/women in His image, yet does not love them 99%of them. Seeing Rom 9:29-30 as a promise instead of a historical review of Gods goodness is eisegesis by trying to make the Aorist Indicative (past tense) into meaning future promise. 8:3). When you do not go to jail or prison after being convicted of Utah crime, you will be placed on probation. Even the Calvinist Gospel Coalition unwraps this verse (and the Luke version) and talks about our personal faith..always describing it as something we can and should have. Christ has come, and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him. By all kinds is meant Jews and gentiles a major theme in John. Then, To the Calvinist, God is static, frozen, unable to personally interact in a sequential fashion.. (1 John 5:20). Q. Dear Dr. Craig, I am an atheist currently reading Reasonable Faith, and I must begin by saying how engaging and challenging your book has so far been!I am looking A fall-back routine in case he paints himself into a illogical corner. In contrast to the Old Testament saints, a modern-day preacher would not teach that we are being conformed to Christs image so that Jesus might be the firstborn among many brethren, because we know Him to already be the firstborn of many brethren. I understand the conflict that occurred within the early church Jewish identity markers etc. 89:27). The Calvinist says that there is nothing new for God to learn, so no new decisions to be made. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. Also, the elect love God because they were elected to love God (i.e., elected to salvation and they love God because He saves them). Thanks. I say then, has God cast away His people? For example, the Psalmist writes, And I will appoint Him to be my firstborn, the most exaltedof the kingsof the earth (Ps. Some have suggested it is sometimes used rhetorically (inceptive, gnomic, and proleptic) where time does not appear to matter, but those views are often interpretive, imo, for the past tense works just as well in they examples they give. He didnt have to manufacture it, or take over the will of those who put Christ to death. By no means! Calvinists must interpret Pauls use of the past tense (aorist indicative) as meaning it is as good as done because it was predestined. But I know that this a defection tactic to deflect the main issue. In the broader context, people are the elect of God before God saves them and there is a period of time where they do not love God as we read in Ephesians 2. Here, Suan recounts this story on Pints with Aquinas. What type of mental state is it for a god who meticulously determined the disciples every neurological impulse to then express indignation over the very impulses he determined them to infallibly have. Please feel free to greet me as Brian. Something a little deeper than practicing the proper regulative principles of worship on Sunday morning. The word THROUGH shows the PROCESS by which YOU were (past tense) saved. Hosea 1:10-11 (NKJV). In order for scripture to *CONFORM* to EDD the Calvinist has to have a god who at the foundation of the world conceives of each unique individual and within that conception determines whether to create/design that individual as a vessel of mercy or a vessel created/designed for eternal torment in a lake of fire for his good pleasure. Very sad.. You wouldnt have made that connection without looking at every place a word is used to uncover the similar contexts and wording. but that He had no personal relationship with them. again with an endless stream of evasion through word parsing. Isaiah 61:6 (NKJV) A faithful remnant of Israelites returning to God was foretold in the OT. Romans 8:28-30: Foreknowledge and Predestination That is the point. This interpretation would make the use of foreknew from romans 11:2 make more sense. We must always chalk it up to ingorance, naivete and unintended mistakes in interpreting scripture. I could never have said it better myself!! Whatever glorified means, it was something that happened in the past to the ones being talked about (those) in this context, whether they are now dead, or still alive. Youve defended both?. Thus the Calvinist has to *FORCE* the definition of the terms elect and predestined and define those terms such that they apply to people who are not saved or not yet saved. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. There is just so little chance that we understand anything perfectly or in its entirety; thus holding to our beliefs loosely not only grants room for others unique perspectives, but for personal growth in understanding as we mature in faith and life. (Rom 8:37f), Here is my exegesis of this passage in Rom 8:29-30 for any interested.
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